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Ask the Expert: Ben Jesson from Conversion Rate Experts joins us to discuss scientific web design

Amanda 03-17-15

Ask the Expert: Ben Jesson from Conversion Rate Experts joins us to discuss scientific web design

[ Edited ]

The live portion of this Q&A has closed. Please read all the amazing content and answers Ben has provided below. We'll be announcing the winners shortly. 

 

Respond to this post with questions you may have, bounce ideas around, and get to know Ben Jesson! He'll be answering any questions you have all week long. Plus, three lucky participants in this discussion will win a free 30-minute consultation from Conversion Rate Experts.

 

Ben Jesson.jpgOur Expert

 

Ben Jesson is the CEO and co-founder of Conversion Rate Experts (CRE), an international consultancy that scientifically optimizes the profitablity of web businesses. CRE's client portfolio includes Apple, Amazon, Facebook, Google, Lloyds Banking Group, GQ, and Sony. Improvements of over 100% are commonplace. Ben is joining us this week to discussion scientific web design for both desktop and mobile. 

 

Lear more at http://www.conversion-rate-experts.com. You can also find Ben in Optiverse under the username @CRE 

 

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Re: Ask the Expert: Ben Jesson from Conversion Rate Experts joins us to discuss scientific web desig

Great Choice for ATE, Amanda!

 

Hi Ben,

 

I've been fortunate enough to sit in on a few of your firm's webinars and found everyone of them enlightening. I've also referred many of my collegues to well written CRO articles on your site. Kudos to you and your team!

 

I have two questions if I may -

 

1) Given your long track record in the optimization space, where do you see our field five years from now?

 

2) Do you see other fields outside of the business space like education, first responders, aid workers etc using experience optimization to improve their performance?

 

Thanks very much in advance, Ben!

Keith Lovgren

Re: Ask the Expert: Ben Jesson from Conversion Rate Experts joins us to discuss scientific web desig

Hey Ben, when launching a new purchase funnel, what are the elements you would prioritize testing first?

 

Thanks!

mlss1003 03-17-15
 

Re: Ask the Expert: Ben Jesson from Conversion Rate Experts joins us to discuss scientific web desig

Hi Ben - Thanks for taking the time to provide your insight! I have a couple questions:

 

1. Do you recommend any resources for determining the current benchmark for purchase conversion rates on an ecommerce desktop site vs. its mobile optimized website vs. its apps?  

 

2. Where do you land on the debate between requiring an email address to purchase or allowing a user to check out as an anonymous guest?  My company is heavily reliant on email marketing to drive traffic and engagement, so the benefit of capturing an email ahead of the purchase is valuable. Additionally, in order to send cart abandonment emails we ask for the email address prior to billing info. If we could expect an X increase in conversion rate as a result of moving or removing this requirement, we could back into whether it's more or less economical for us.

 

Thank you! Looking forward to your thoughts.

Melissa

Level 1
DomArmano 03-17-15
 

Re: Ask the Expert: Ben Jesson from Conversion Rate Experts joins us to discuss scientific web desig

Hello Ben and Amanda, 

thanks for taking time out to address questions. I am currently breaking down our check out process, and trying to identify pain points for our customers as they go through the process, to increase conversions at critical points. 

 

I am wondering if you have any specific pointers to identify which form fields are "hang-ups" for potential customers, and the best way to test some of thes ideas. 

 

Thanks!

D=

 

 

Dom Armano
Digital marketing professional
nvbeard 03-17-15
 

Re: Ask the Expert: Ben Jesson from Conversion Rate Experts joins us to discuss scientific web desig

Hi Ben,

 

I attended ConversionXL recently, and no one seemed to be able to answer what I, as a newcomer to CRO, thought pretty basic. How do you establish realistic goals when first starting conversion testing? How do you know when your test was successful?

 

Thank you for your time.

Nicolette

Level 1
ericfoutch 03-17-15
 

Re: Ask the Expert: Ben Jesson from Conversion Rate Experts joins us to discuss scientific web desig

Hello Ben,

 

I manage a few accounts for my clients specifically on Google Adwords. Of the 68 people who signed up for demos in February from PPC, 41% (28) are what they would categorize as "no interest." Upon qualification by their SDR, many of these people were looking for other types of software (Supply Chain Management, LMS, Benefits Admin), were way too small to need software, were job seekers, or just filled out the form with no intention of ever evaluating a software. Looking at their numbers from last year only 9% of their PPC leads were categorized as having no interest. 

 

A couple of notes: They were selling a different product before and their lead goals weren't as high, but their PPL was much higher than it is now. 

 

Do you have any suggestions on how we can improve the quality of their PPC leads?

 

Thank you!

0969 03-17-15
 

Re: Ask the Expert: Ben Jesson from Conversion Rate Experts joins us to discuss scientific web desig

 

Is Duplicate Content totally exceptable if web sites are targeting diffrent locations.

If the same content is used in 2 different GeoDomain sites like, NashvilleBarber.com and MiamiBarber.com,

would the sites ranking be penalized?

Level 1
Nmintiens 03-17-15
 

Re: Ask the Expert: Ben Jesson from Conversion Rate Experts joins us to discuss scientific web desig

Hey Ben

 

My company is in the process of trying to add CRO as an offering to our clients. We currently build their websites and provide on-going SEO/PPC services. 

 

Sales and Execs are concerned that adding CRO as an add-on premium service will diminish our current website product offering by implying that clients who do not purchase or are not eligible for CRO services will receive a "less than optimized" website.

 

  1. How can we position CRO as a premium service offering without devaluing our current website offerings?
  2. How should we decide the best agency pricing structure for providing the service?

Any tips or articles would be appreciated.

 

Thanks,

Nicole

Nicole Mintiens
Certifications, Optimizely
benwills 03-17-15
 

Re: Ask the Expert: Ben Jesson from Conversion Rate Experts joins us to discuss scientific web desig

Hi Ben! First of all, thank you for all your thought-leadership on CRO! I watched your talk from MozCon a number of years back and was blown away -- it altered the direction of my career in a big way. My question is a bit general, so please feel free to take creative liberty with it: I'm wondering how you approach qualitative data to develop and prioritize hypotheses for testing. For example, how do you determine if survey responses are touching on a real, decision-influencing issue that deserves addressing versus just being noise? It seems like there's always a risk of self-reporting being misleading -- respondents aren't always aware of or willing to admit what's really going on in their mind. Qualitative research is always inspiring, but in my experience is much harder to interpret and prioritize than quantitative data. Looking forward to reading your responses to this AMA! All the best, Ben
Level 1
eaksoy87 03-18-15
 

Re: Ask the Expert: Ben Jesson from Conversion Rate Experts joins us to discuss scientific web desig

Hi Ben,

 

When trying to improve the conversion rate of an e-commerce website, what would be the first thing that you'd focus on?

 

Thanks!

 

Emre

Level 1
CRE 03-18-15
 

Re: Ask the Expert: Ben Jesson from Conversion Rate Experts joins us to discuss scientific web desig

@keith_lovgren

 

Q. 1) Given your long track record in the optimization space, where do you see our field five years from now?

 

 

A. It still amazes us how few companies make marketing decisions based on data, facts, and experimentation. But the momentum is growing. Our clients include many of the web’s most successful companies, and it’s no coincidence that they have built their success on the principles of optimization.

 

The conversion space will grow like crazy over the next five years, for many reasons:

 

  • C-level staff are learning to demand evidence. As more advertising dollars are spent online, it’s negligent not to use the data that’s available for measurement and optimization.
  • Everyone involved in building websites can, and should, be accountable for the performance of their work. This includes developers, designers, and copywriters. For those that embrace optimization, it’s going to be exciting and lucrative (albeit demanding). We’re not sure what will happen to those who don’t want to measure and learn.
  • Online is going to get more competitive, and it’s winner takes all. Put bluntly, measurement and optimization is a prerequisite for a successful web business, not a “nice to have.” How on earth will web businesses compete without optimizing the customer experience? We’ve written about this in our article about Scientific Web Design.
  • Mobile is growing like crazy. Consider how many mobile experiences are going to need optimizing over the next five years. Most of the mobile projects we’ve worked on over the last year have involved planning the first version or optimizing a very early iteration. As more customers and companies interact with mobile, we’ll need much better mobile experiences.
  • The conversion community will grow. When we first started speaking at marketing conferences, one of our first slides was “What is your conversion rate?” Everyone was talking about acquiring more traffic, and didn’t seem too concerned about what happened to the visitors once they clicked through to the website. Good times breed bad habits. Thankfully, things have changed. Now there are conferences, podcasts, blogs, books, newsletters, and communities dedicated to conversion rate optimization (CRO).
CRE
Level 2
CRE 03-18-15
 

Re: Ask the Expert: Ben Jesson from Conversion Rate Experts joins us to discuss scientific web desig

@keith_lovgren 

 

Another long answer coming up, Keith: Smiley Happy

 

Q 2) Do you see other fields outside of the business space like education, first responders, aid workers, etc., using experience optimization to improve their performance?

 

A. Absolutely. The approach can be used for improving almost anything:

  • Step 1: Agree the goals, and how to measure success.
  • Step 2: Identify where a process is underperforming, and why. (Speaking with users is normally the best way to do this.)
  • Step 3: Make changes in a controlled and measurable way.
  • Step 4: Integrate improvements into the process.

We work mainly on websites, but we have applied the same process to many aspects of businesses. For example, we applied it to optimizing a call center for a company that sold world-phones to travelers. Using the following steps, we managed to reduce the number of calls to the call center by over 60%:

 

  • Step 1: We agreed that our goal was to reduce customer-support calls.
  • Step 2: Using Pareto analysis, we identified that a large fraction of the incoming calls were from customers who couldn’t work out how to use the phone’s travel adapter. We analyzed the questions people asked; we carried out user-testing on the user guide itself; we spoke to customers; and, most importantly, we used the travel adapter and the user guide ourselves. It turned out that the instructions and imagery on the packaging were responsible for the confusion.
  • Step 3: We created a new version of the packaging, and a simplified user guide. The travel adapter was a third-party product so we spoke to the CEO of the company that manufactured it, and persuaded him to allow us to redesign his product’s packaging! He sent a batch of adapters with the new packaging, and we began shipping them. Almost immediately the call center became quieter.
  • Step 4: By redesigning the packaging, we had obliterated the root-cause of the customer confusion, so the new design became standard.

By repeating this approach, within a couple of months we managed to reduce the number of incoming calls to the call center by about two-thirds. This saved a lot of money, and solved the call center’s hiring problem!

CRE
Level 2
CRE 03-18-15
 

Re: Ask the Expert: Ben Jesson from Conversion Rate Experts joins us to discuss scientific web desig

Some great questions from you all.

 

@ronnieatporch 

 

Q. When launching a new purchase funnel, what are the elements you would prioritize testing first?

 

A. Ronnie, here are the criteria we use for prioritizing tests:

 

  • Is the page or page element a blocked artery? Just as an artery in your body is the highway that carries large volumes of blood, an artery in your business is a high-volume pathway that leads to conversions. Once you have identified your business’s arteries, search for blockages in them—that is, aspects of them that are underperforming.
  • How likely is the idea to double the business? For example, does it address something that was revealed by research? Every idea we test must have a robust hypothesis or rationale—with evidence to support it.
  • How easy would it be to implement? Does it have a new layout, or require significant design or copy work? Might it be affected by regulations or brand guidelines? Would it require significant IT resources?
  • Has this idea worked before? The more you test, the more you learn what works—and what’s a waste of time. Every test we develop gets documented so that we can review and prioritize ideas that are inspired by winning tests.
CRE
Level 2
CRE 03-18-15
 

Re: Ask the Expert: Ben Jesson from Conversion Rate Experts joins us to discuss scientific web desig

 

@mlss1003 

 

Q1. Do you recommend any resources for determining the current benchmark for purchase conversion rates on an ecommerce desktop site vs. its mobile-optimized website vs. its apps?

 

This article, “2014 E-Commerce Mobile Conversion Rate Benchmarks” contains some of what you're looking for. However, it depends on whether you want to benchmark yourself against the average (which tends to be poor) or against the companies that are successful. Unfortunately, the companies that are experiencing the most success with mobile aren’t publishing their data.

 

CRE
Level 2
CRE 03-18-15
 

Re: Ask the Expert: Ben Jesson from Conversion Rate Experts joins us to discuss scientific web desig

@mlss1003 

 

Q2. Where do you land on the debate between requiring an email address to purchase or allowing a user to check out as an anonymous guest? My company is heavily reliant on email marketing to drive traffic and engagement, so the benefit of capturing an email ahead of the purchase is valuable. Additionally, in order to send cart abandonment emails we ask for the email address prior to billing info. If we could expect an X increase in conversion rate as a result of moving or removing this requirement, we could back into whether it's more or less economical for us.

 

A. To a large extent, this depends on how well you (i) Minimize the downside: In other words, how well you capture the email address without losing conversions, and (ii) Maximize the upside: How well you increase profits by making good use of the email address. In our experience, done well, the upside is usually greater than the downside.

 

CRE
Level 2
CRE 03-18-15
 

Re: Ask the Expert: Ben Jesson from Conversion Rate Experts joins us to discuss scientific web desig

@DomArmano 

 

Q. I am currently breaking down our checkout process, and trying to identify pain points for our customers as they go through the process, to increase conversions at critical points. I am wondering if you have any specific pointers to identify which form fields are "hang-ups" for potential customers, and the best way to test some of these ideas.

 

A. Formisimo, ClickTale, Hotjar and Inspectlet can help you to identify which fields are causing the greatest drop-offs.

 

Also, examine your error logs.

 

Coupon-code fields in particular can be conversion-killing rascals.

CRE
Level 2
CRE 03-18-15
 

Re: Ask the Expert: Ben Jesson from Conversion Rate Experts joins us to discuss scientific web desig

@nvbeard 

 

Q. I attended ConversionXL recently, and no one seemed to be able to answer what I, as a newcomer to CRO, thought pretty basic. How do you establish realistic goals when first starting conversion testing? How do you know when your test was successful?

 

A. There are two parts to this answer:

 

(i) What metrics should you measure?

 

This depends on your business model:

 

  • If your company is highly sensitive to network effects or other economies of scale, then your main metric should be about acquiring users quickly.
  • If your company isn’t sensitive to economies of scale, you will probably want to focus more on lifetime profit-per-visitor (LPPV), which is a function of the conversion rate of visitors, and the lifetime customer value (LCV) of each of the visitors who convert. LPPV helps you to identify what you can afford to spend to acquire each visitor. However, LCV (and thus LPPV) is hard to measure, especially in a timely fashion, so good proxies include conversion rate, and the average profit for the first order. Either way, it can help to model the economics in a spreadsheet package. Split-test your new pages to measure how you have managed to improve those metrics.
  • Customer happiness (which you can measure using Net Promoter Score) is likely to be important too, because it determines the rate at which you’ll grow by word of mouth.

 

(ii) For those metrics, what should be the target value, so you know what the opportunity is likely to be.

 

Many people want to know what their target value should be for conversion rate. There is no “ideal” target rate, and here’s a story to explain why: Years ago, we helped a friend with his startup, and managed to get his sign-up form converting at a rate of 52%. That’s because the traffic was highly targeted; the company was bidding only on visitors who were looking for exactly what the company offered. If the company had bid more aggressively on a broader range of keywords, its conversion rate would have decreased, but it would likely have massively increased its number of orders—and its profits.

 

If you want to benchmark your progress against something, it should be against your competitors. Aim to be able to outbid your competitors in AdWords, to have higher Net Promoter Scores than them, and/or to grow faster than they are growing. Once you have beaten them, choose bigger competitors to compete with.

CRE
Level 2
CRE 03-18-15
 

Re: Ask the Expert: Ben Jesson from Conversion Rate Experts joins us to discuss scientific web desig

@ericfoutch 

 

Q. I manage a few accounts for my clients specifically on Google Adwords. Of the 68 people who signed up for demos in February from PPC, 41% (28) are what they would categorize as "no interest." Upon qualification by their SDR, many of these people were looking for other types of software (Supply Chain Management, LMS, Benefits Admin), were way too small to need software, were job seekers, or just filled out the form with no intention of ever evaluating a software. Looking at their numbers from last year only 9% of their PPC leads were categorized as having no interest. They were selling a different product before and their lead goals weren't as high, but their PPL was much higher than it is now.

 

Do you have any suggestions on how we can improve the quality of their PPC leads?

 

A. You need to match up the audience to the series of the offers, to the product.

 

Start by understanding the demographics of your client’s ideal customers (“who they are”) and their psychographics (“what they think and want”). Then find out which keywords those people are searching for. Next, create a series of offers that will be irresistible to those people.

 

Also, try to eliminate the keywords that are attracting low-value visitors. However, if you find that it’s impossible to avoid bidding on time-waster visitors, don’t worry about it too much; accept that they are “part of the package” and that your competitors will need to bid on them too, so their low value will be adjusted into the bidding cost for that keyword.

 

Also, don’t assume that your client needs to have a one-step sale. It’s usually economically favorable to create a multi-step funnel, so you can nurture leads through the different stages of awareness, trust and value. In the same way that you wouldn’t walk into a bar and ask someone to marry you.

 

CRE
Level 2
elmerore 03-18-15
 

Re: Ask the Expert: Ben Jesson from Conversion Rate Experts joins us to discuss scientific web desig

 

Hi Ben and Amanda, 

thanks for taking the time to address our questions, 

 

In our company we have limited resources of IT and big ideas.  With tools like Optimizely, we are able to do many test ranging from copy change to changing, hiding or creating some elements of the page.  In case of more complex tests, like a new lead form (with extra fields), landing page, dynamic content, etc.  What tools/techniques would you recommend to use?.  The idea is to probe a concept before spending hours of IT resources to create something that maybe won't pass a test.

 

Thank you, 

Elmer

Level 1

Re: Ask the Expert: Ben Jesson from Conversion Rate Experts joins us to discuss scientific web desig

@CRE Terriffic answers to all of the questions. Thanks for taking the time (which I'm certain is in short supply!) for putting together such thoughtful replies.

Keith Lovgren

buynai 03-19-15
 

Re: Ask the Expert: Ben Jesson from Conversion Rate Experts joins us to discuss scientific web desig

Hi Ben,

 

Do you have any advice or best-practices on cross-selling in an e-commerce context?

 

The background is that I run a bargain hunting/deal website where most deals are only available in the short-term, often for just a single day. Still a lot of search traffic lands on these expired and inactive deals, so I want to better convert them.

 

Any ideas on what I could test beyond the obvious (showing active deals somewhere on the page etc.)?

 

Much appreciated!

buynai

Level 2
CRE 03-19-15
 

Re: Ask the Expert: Ben Jesson from Conversion Rate Experts joins us to discuss scientific web desig

@0969 

 

Q. Is Duplicate Content totally acceptable if web sites are targeting different locations.

 

A. We don't specialise in SEO, but if you ask the question to the communities of Moz.com or SEOBook.com, you'll get great answers.

 

CRE
Level 2
CRE 03-19-15
 

Re: Ask the Expert: Ben Jesson from Conversion Rate Experts joins us to discuss scientific web desig

@Nmintiens

 

Q. How can we position CRO as a premium service offering without devaluing our current website offerings?

 

A. Hi Nicole. This is a hard one. Many clients come to us after having been let down by the company that built their website. In our opinion, CRO is an integral part of web design—arguably the whole reason why the website exists. Selling CRO as an add-on service is like selling someone a car, then charging them to make it work. Our feelings towards this are described in this article (in the part that’s in italics).

 

CRE
Level 2
CRE 03-19-15
 

Re: Ask the Expert: Ben Jesson from Conversion Rate Experts joins us to discuss scientific web desig

[ Edited ]

@benwills 

 

Q. I'm wondering how you approach qualitative data to develop and prioritize hypotheses for testing. It seems like there's always a risk of self-reporting being misleading -- respondents aren't always aware of or willing to admit what's really going on in their mind.

 

A. Thanks, Ben! Part of the answer lies in asking the right questions. We mention some great questions in this talk. Unfortunately, part of the answer lies in being experienced at spotting opportunities.

 

Henry Ford said, “If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses.” However, that doesn’t mean that we should ignore self-reporting altogether. A wise marketer will look beyond the customers’ proposed solution (“faster horses”) and identify the customers’ core needs—why they want a faster horse (“to get there quicker”). When you listen to voice-of-customer data, look beyond what the customer wants, and identify why they want it. Also, be particularly wary when the customers' core needs and motivations are taboo.

CRE
Level 2
CRE 03-19-15
 

Re: Ask the Expert: Ben Jesson from Conversion Rate Experts joins us to discuss scientific web desig

@eaksoy87 

 

Q. When trying to improve the conversion rate of an e-commerce website, what would be the first thing that you'd focus on?


A. Hi Emre. I’d ask the magic question to existing customers: “What nearly stopped your from ordering from us.” Then I’d fix that. This article contains some other questions I’d ask, and this article describes some of the changes I’d consider making to your website.

 

CRE
Level 2
CRE 03-19-15
 

Re: Ask the Expert: Ben Jesson from Conversion Rate Experts joins us to discuss scientific web desig

 

 

@elmerore 

 

Q. In our company we have limited resources of IT and big ideas.  With tools like Optimizely, we are able to do many tests, ranging from copy change to changing, hiding or creating some elements of the page.  In case of more complex tests, like a new lead form (with extra fields), landing page, dynamic content, etc., what tools/techniques would you recommend to use? The idea is to probe a concept before spending hours of IT resources to create something that maybe won't pass a test.


A. Hi Elmer. First, try usability-testing your wireframes. Usability-testing will reveal problems and opportunities at a granular scale. You can use Optimizely to test major changes—like a new lead form. Just host the new page on a separate URL. If you want to create the new page without needing IT input, and it’s beyond the scope of Optimizely’s editor, you could use a service like UnbounceHere’s an interview on Optimizely’s blog with Oli Gardner, Unbounce's smart founder, who spoke at one of Optimizely's conferences recently.

CRE
Level 2
nvbeard 03-19-15
 

Re: Ask the Expert: Ben Jesson from Conversion Rate Experts joins us to discuss scientific web desig

 @0969 - I thought I'd jump in and provide a link to a recent blog post I wrote on duplicate content scenarios. Hope you find it helpful.

 

Best,

Nicolette

Level 1
CRE 03-19-15
 

Re: Ask the Expert: Ben Jesson from Conversion Rate Experts joins us to discuss scientific web desig

@buynai 

 

Q. Do you have any advice or best-practices on cross-selling in an e-commerce context?

 

Any ideas on what I could test beyond the obvious (showing active deals somewhere on the page etc.)?

 

A. Hi, Buynai. It sounds like you need to come up with deals that best match what the visitors want. If you can't do that with your existing offers, then an ad service like AdSense might work, because it is more likely to be able to satisfy the visitors' intent—at the highest rate than anyone is prepared for bid. Affiliate programs may help too, but I guess you already have that sorted out.

 

Assuming that you are able to offer what the visitors want, you then need to identify the logic of what to offer them. If the logic is simple, you could build your own system; if it’s more complicated, you could use a recommendation engine like the one in Adobe Target.

 

CRE
Level 2
buynai 03-20-15
 

Re: Ask the Expert: Ben Jesson from Conversion Rate Experts joins us to discuss scientific web desig

@CRE 

 

Thanks for the answers!

 

Definitively food for thought, even though I am not sure yet to what extent it can be implemented in our model and at our early stage. So far we looked for a way to entice customers to check out an active deal no matter how close it is to the expired deal they landed on (you come for the iPhone, but leave with the Samsung Galaxy or a TV).

 

Writing it down that explicitly makes it look like a pretty tough sell, but is actually the only way we can offer the huge savings in our deals (think slickdeals.net). Will look into ways of offering sth as close as possible to the visitor's original purchase intent.

 

Level 2
Redchelli 03-20-15
 

Re: Ask the Expert: Ben Jesson from Conversion Rate Experts joins us to discuss scientific web desig

Hi Ben

 

Where are your thoughts on Regenerating Opportunites that potential customers decide not to complete?

 

What are your thougths on getting clarity from customers that don't proceed to improve the business moving forward?

 

Look forward to your response 

 

 

CRE 03-23-15
 

Re: Ask the Expert: Ben Jesson from Conversion Rate Experts joins us to discuss scientific web desig

@Redchelli 

 

Q. Where are your thoughts on Regenerating Opportunities that potential customers decide not to complete?

 

What are your thoughts on getting clarity from customers that don't proceed to improve the business moving forward?

 

A. It’s essential to find out why visitors aren’t buying, so you can overcome those objections. Otherwise, tomorrow’s visitors will leave for the same reasons that today’s visitors did.


Also, many visitors won’t be ready to buy after their first visit. So you can improve profits greatly by building processes for nurturing relationships. There are many ways of doing this, including ad retargeting; getting them to join your email funnel; getting them to follow you on social media; and email retargetting visitors who abandoned their shopping carts.

CRE
Level 2